Build Your Own Navy:Canada Edition
HMCS Toronto (FFH 333)
Here is a little game that was originally conceived by David Axe at War is Boring, and which New Wars has put its own spin upon. For this particular post we will play around with some funds for the Canadian navy. Of late, budget difficulties and barely averted ship cuts has some questioning just what type of fleet does the world’s largest country needs.
For the next few years the Canadian Government has allocated about $3 billion USD for the modernization of its 12 Halifax class frigates, plus an unknown amount for its Victoria class submarines. So lets say you had $3 billion USD to spend. Instead of modernizing older vessels which may or may not be right for modern and future problems of seapower, you could rebuild the fleet. Here are some choices of what you could buy with those same funds:
Submarines:
- 30 Gotlands @ $100 million each
- 8 Type 214s @ $350 million each
Frigate types
- 11 Absalon command frigates @ $269 million each
- 17 Holland class patrol vessels @ $169 million
Corvette types
- 21 Baynunah corvettes @ $137 million each
- 16 Visby corvettes @ $184 million each
- 60 Knud Rasmussen patrol ships @ $50 million each
- 15 Sea Fighter fast sea frames @ $200 million each
Patrol Ships
- 63 Clyde patrol vessels @ $47 million each
- 63 Sentinel cutters @ $47 million each
- 47 Protector (Otago) Multi-Role Vessels @ $62.6 million
Fast Attack Craft
- 22 Skjold patrol boats @ $133.5 million each
- 500 Stiletto prototype littoral ships @ $6 million each
Amphibious Warships
- 10 Bay class LSDs @ $288 million
- 8 Johan De Witt LPDs @ $370 million
- 5 Mistral assault ships @ $529.8 million each
- 21 Endurance LSTs @ $142 million
Support Ships (Motherships)
- 6 Berlin replenishment ships @ $445 million each
- 18 Joint High Speed Vessels @ $160 million each
- 17 Wave Knight fleet tankers @ $172 million each
Of course, these examples were given just to reveal what could be purchased on a limited budget. Prices would vary, and naturally you would want balance, instead of all Berlin class or Absalons (sorry Scott!). With this in mind, toward a balanced and strengthened Canadian Navy, ready for the present and future, here is my fleet, built with $3 billion:
- 4 Gotland submarines total-$400 million
- 12 Knud Rasmussen patrol ships total-$600 million
- 20 Clyde patrol vessels total-$940 million
- 6 Wave Knight fleet tankers total-$1032
Total-$2.972 billion with 42 new warships added to the fleet. Now its your turn in the comments. Enjoy!
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In regards to commentary on how to best project a Canadian presence in arctic waters, I think the government is failing to see just how futile the planned OPV’s will be in their capabilities. First, they are not icebreakers, as by now everyone knows. They are at best slush busters. The arctic is a vast area and for the most part its waterways will remained ice covered for a considerable time to come, even if only seasonally. These vessels will be slow and designed for a narrow frame of operations. Furthermore, in time, they will no doubt be called on to perform other duties in support of Canadian commitments around the globe, as it has been with all our available military assets. It seems ridiculous to pile a whole lot of money into vessels so limited in their designed capabilities. I think the government should scrap the whole notion of arctic OPV’s and concentrate on building a second, or even a third polar class icebreaker for the Coast Guard. These vessels will at least be able to conduct more far reaching operations than the OPV’s. If the federal government is at all serious about a military presence and protecting Canadian sovereignty, they might consider a squadron or two of long range strike fighters equipped with air to surface missiles, that could be based in the north and supported by adequate surveillance, i.e. airborne radar and drones, as well as inflight refuelling measures. Combat surface units will be rendered moot, for the most part. It’s one thing to show the flag and sail a frigate above the arctic circle in the summer months, but if the Royal Canadian Navy, wants to back up its bark with teeth, that would only mean procuring a minimum of three or four SSN’s. Air independent subs, might be good in a pinch, but to transit arctic waters year round, the best means is still nuclear. Even if operational as merely a fleet in being, just having nuclear subs will send a far stronger message to any potential intruder, than any constrained OPVs.
The LHA is not needed in Canada. Countries like Austrialia may have a need but not us. To defend Canada / North America we need two things: air superiority and peace time sea control with sea denial capabiltiy if a war ever comes. This is the most affordable and effective model.
The Americans will have us covered but it doesn’t mean Canada should not have an effective interceptor / multirole fighter like the Gripen which is also cost effective. We could get 80 or more for what they want to waste on 65 F-35 semi-stealth ground attack aircraft not to mention 1/5 the cost per hour to fly. Not bad for a plane that performs similar to the Eurofighter, ans they can be built in Canada!
As for constabulary sea patrol, Canada should join the USCG OPC procurement and add 8 or 9 units to the order. I personally like the SX151 submission but would like to have some ultra-heavy sea-state questions answered. Put the CCG under domain of the Navy like in the US. Stock the OPC with the AS565 which is the military version of the USCG Dolphin helicopter. This gives the capability of turning OPC into corvettes with ASW capability if needed. I’d also advocate for 8 more Hero class patol ships.
The AOPS are a lemons. They can’t patrol longer than a few months where they are meant to be and are to slow to do anything else. What is more is that their military capabilities are laughable. Just cancel them and build 3 heavy icebrekers that can stay up north all year round for a continuous presence. Put one or two AS565s on each and there is your punch and SAR aircraft too. Maybe one AS565 and one EC225.
For a Naval sea-denial there is only one vessel – an SSN. Canadians are smarter than many of you seem to think and with the proper introduction and marketing it will be accepted. SSNs can patrol our costs and approaches 365 days per year and double as our international support in NATO task forces and convoys negating the need for AORs we are now looking at getting. I agree the Barracuda class is perfect for Canada. No enriched fuel needed, small crew requirements. 6 would work but 8 would be ideal. 10 if we’re playing fantasy navy.
If we really feel the need for a surface presence internationally there is aways the Absalon support ship or the FREMM class (DCNS would probably give us a package deal with the Barracuda) with a flex deck. I wouldn’t spend the $ on more than a handful of this class of vessel and no AOR support. If our allies want us to be part of a US/NATO task force we’ll use their AOR.
For search and rescue we need to give the techs what they are asking for. Build 15-20 Buffalo NG SAR aircraft and procure more C-130Js. Supplement the Commornts with 15 EC225 SAR and buy the military version the EC725 for Army heavy lift and cancel those oversized Chinooks bought without tender. EC725 naval ASW for any Absalons or FREMMs. Two each.
What the government could also do by focusing on a company like Eurocopter is get a great deal for several services and departments across Canada. Instead of buying equipment piecemeal, the government could say “we will buy x number of your helicopters for army, navy, CCG, SAR, medivac etc. if you build them in Canada. More than 50 and that is a go according to Eurocopter CEO. Remove the low level bureaucrat making purchase decisions (see ORNGE in Ontario) and find the ecomomies of scale in bulk purchasing. Everyone wins except the corrupt.
That being said. Build the OPC in Canada, the heavy ice breakers, and of course the Hero class but seriously review the policy on building all Naval vessels in Canada. Learning curves for subs and warships is high and costs quickly go up. Canada building Barracuda class subs would be great but look at Yarrow in England (now BAE Systems). When they had a 10 year building gap it destroyed their capability just like out shipyards when the last Halifax class was commissioned. They would have to be another benefit to the construciton such as the Canadian Space Agency working together regarding the systems integration for a sub and keeping that capability for space. Which would also require expansion of the CSA’s roles but hey, that is the future of high tech jobs and R&D if you want Canada to stay on top.
Aircraft (Exisiting and new):
Air Force: Avenger Predator C UAV = 60
Air Force: JAS 39 Gripen E/F (CF-118 replacements) = 80
Army / Navy: EC725 (20 Army heavy lift, 10 Navy) = 30
Army / CCG: EC645 (65 Griffon replacements) = 80
Air Force: CC-117 Globemaster with DART Modules = 4
Air Force: C-130J Hercules (Search and Rescue and Forces Transport) = 27
Air Force: CC-150 Polaris Refuellers / Transports) = 5
Army / Navy: AS565 (9 on SX121 and 3 PCIB) = 12
Air Force: EC225 (30 SAR, 5 CCG) = 35
CCG: EC145 (25 CCG, 60 air ambulance, 3 PCIB) = 88
Pilatus PC-12 (35 Provincial medical transport) = 35
Air Force: DHC-5NG S&R = 15
Ships:
Navy Barracuda class SSN = 6 (15b) 60 crew (360 crew)
Navy Absalon Command Frigate = 5 (6.5b) 110 crew (550 crew)
CCG SX151 OPC = 9 (4.5b) 70 crew (630 crew)
CCG Hero class patrol vessel = 8 (17 total) (300m) 14 crew (238 crew)
CCG Polar Icebreaker Arctic patrol vessel = 3 (4b)
Other replacement vessels = 114 (2b)
Here is a budget navy based on what we need (Canada first defence policy) and some reasonable beefing up
10 DDG $850M per ship (options on 6 more) 8.5 billion (replaces DDH 208&CPF 4 in storage 2 CPF used as target ships 3 DDH-280′s used as target ships.)*
8 AOPV $100M per ship (options on 6 more) 0.8 billion*
3 Berlin AOR $445M per ship 1.4 billion (replaces Provider & Protecture AOR)*
12 Milgem frigates $260M per ship (options on 6 more) 3.1 billion (replaces Kingston turned over to RCMP)**
12 Type 216 ssk $700M per ship 8.4 billion (replaces Victoria)#
1 Juan Carlos LHA (options on 2 more) 1.0 billion**
12 P-8 patrol aircraft $100M per aircraft 1.2billion (replaces cp-140& cp-140a)*
6 CPF’s retained (for reserve use and training)
28 CH-148 Cyclones (shore use)
40 CH-159 wildcat 38.4M per helicopter 1.5 billion (ship use)#
30 CV-22 $69.6M per aircraft 2 billion (for use on LHA)#
18 CAH-1Z $31M per aircraft .58 billion(for use on LHA)#
28 CF-35B $200M per A/C 5.6B (for use by fleet air arm on LHA)#
total cost $33.9 Billion
* indicates requirement under Canada first defence policy
**indicates programs already under consideration by RCN
# indicates beefing up
this would still be expensive. And I still have my doubts about the F-35B, I would need to investigate if the navy Grippen NG could fly off my LHA choice. I think it would be the only way the RCN could get back into the aircraft carrier community again. we would have to increase the manpower of the navy by almost 2 times. let me know what you think.
The PV85s that the RNZN has acquired are strengthened for Ice conditions so they’d be perfect for patrolling the coast, especially the East Coast/St. Lawrence/Labrador region. Any way you slice it the AOPS is a terrible idea, especially because they’re only a seasonal vessel.
While I agree that SSNs are the only significant force projection options for the Arctic, I believe them to be a non-starter for the majority of Canadians. Unfortunately. I think that having some sort of Command vessel like a Mistral Class that can be equally valuable in a humanitarian crises as in a NATO mission would be more in line with the Nations role in the world than a purely offensive weapon like a SSN. not to mention the fact that at a minimum they’d be 4 times more expensive per unit than a SSK.
I still think that having at the very least the hulls built in South Korea shipyards like the British MARS program is the only way that this program gets anywhere close to the capabilities our Navy needs for the money the government can afford.
With you on the Ice Breakers but not sure of how much they need past a 57mm gun. Perhaps a modular sysem like the Danish use may work. It could be upgraded depending on politcal climate.
As for the PV85 Otagos I think there may be a better alternative now. Check out a USCG submission for the OPC contract designated the SX151. More stable in heavy sea states and better armed. I’d require the capability to have some anti air and ship defence. For Canada we probably don’t need 20 but more like 12-15 especially if we get 8-10 more Hero class patrol ships.
Those frigates are probably going to cost more like 800m to 1 billion each.
I’d personally forgo the frigates for 4 Danish Absalon Command Frigates. We can use these for our visible global presence hunting pirates or providing emergence aide. Things we do that look good on us give us the opportunity to wave the flag.
For our Nato obligations I’d favour eliminating the surface presence and investing in a platform that can travel independantly around the world eliminating the need for AORs, can patrol 100% of our coast 365 days a year, and provide a valuable asset to NATO missions helping our allies without having to fly our flag off hostile waters. That is the key for the Canadian navy. Of course I’m talking about SSNs. 6 or 7 would do.
Effective control of the Arctic is what they would provide and that is the only real direct threat to Canada. SSKs do not come close to their capabilties and are too slow to transit across oceans to take part meaningfully in international operations.
Here goes:
4 – Armed Heavy Icebreakers @$750m = $3b
Instead of the AOPS, these vessels could serve year round, but only in the arctic region. Should include: 1 CH-148, 1 76mm, CIWS, possibility for Harpoon and or SAM
13 – De Zeven Provincien Frigates @532m = $4.316b
These serve as the SCSC vessels, The “Province Class”
1 – Mistral BPC @ 530m = $530m
3 – Wave Knight AOR @ 172m = $516m
This is the effective replacement of the Protecteur Class AOR
20 – Otago OPV@ 62.6m = $1.252b
The Kingston Class coastal defence vessel replacement and significant upgrade
6 – Gotland Submarines @$365 = $2.19b
Replacing the Victoria Class SSK
47 Hull Total Costs = $14.404b or less than 1/2 of current projected costs.
My modified RCN that I have been looking at as of yet, and the kick in the pants is that the RCN could afford it.
2x- American Class Assault Ships
6x- KDX-2 destroyers
12x- Halifax class FFG’s
8x- Type 26 FFG
8x- K 130 corvettes
4x-Windsor class SSK
6x-Type 214 SSK
4x-Inflexable SSBN
2x- Endurance class LPD’s
18x- Kingston MCM ships
In this they would need to build 2 CVL, 8 FFG, 8 FSG, 6 SSK, 4 SSBN, 2 LPD, 6 MCM in this they can do these ships over a 10 year plan. Though they could just buy the SSBN that I suggest with the changing from Exocet to Harpoon missiles since it is French.
Here is my revised navy,
15 De Zeven Provincien DDG $13B
26 Meko-200 FFG $6.1B 6 fitted for mine clearing duties instead of helicopters
7 Enforcer LPD $1.5B
2 Juan Carlos LHA $1.0B
24 Type 216 SSK $20B
8 Arctic patrol vessels PV $3.2B
6 Pinto AOR $1.4B
Helo- 28 CH148 Cyclone ASW $1.8B
28 CH-148B Cyclone Transport $1.8B
28 CAH- 1Z Cobra $0.6B
Aircraft- 18 CF-35B $2.0B
16 CP-8 Posidon $1.6B
20 CP-99 $1.4B
Development programs
light carrier planned 3 ( able to carry 24 sea Grippons, 2 helo, 2, E-2D) 2030 time frame
$2B development (possible joint venture with RAN)
Canadian patrol aircraft (40 aircraft based on C-Series jet with tanking ability) 2020 $1.5B
development (as above)
Total cost $40.9 Billion
work share DDG 10 built in Canada, 5 built in Netherlands (5 per year, 3yr completion)
FFG 26 built in Canada (6 pre year, 4.5 yr completion)
LPD 4 built in Canada, 3 built in Netherlands (3 per year,2.5 yr completion)
LHA 1 built in Canada, 1 built in Spain (1 per year, 2 yr completion)
AOR 3 Built in Canada, 3 built in Spain (3 per year, 2yr completion)
PV 8 built in Canada (4 per year, 2 year completion)
SSK 14 built in Canada, 10 built in Germany (4 per year, 6 yr completion)
CV development final design 2025 production 2025-2030 1 ship per year
more capability and opportunity to develop Canadian ship building, no nuclear subs for less political hassle at home, $4.8 Billion less than
I Agree with most of the Navy’s spending so far, everything except the AOPS project i would cancel that right away and buy 3-4 real year round ice breakers.
Call the Germans and have them change the design specs of the Type 216 so It could go 4 weeks without snorkelling as well as increasing the endurance of the sub to around 90 or 100 Days, and most importantly make it Ice Cap ready whatever that takes (i.e: strengthening the mast, maybe making the sub bigger) and order a hole pile of them something like 12-14 would be great. If cost is an issue impose a one year tax on Foreign owned companies with Oil Sands operations, should create lots of money for the navy even though it would never happen.
Hi Glenn, i believe the Absalon class can lift 200 troops. Again, I’d hate to see funds go into duplicating what our air force already can. Save the funds for nuke subs.
We are going to need a healthy size affordable but capable fleet. I can see how sea lift of some kind will be needed. We cancelled a ship class in 63 called the general purpose Frigate it could carry 200 light infantry a helicopter, shore bombardment and air defence capability and ASW ability to boot. I have been working on a less expensive version of of my original plan. I’ll post it in the next few days.
One more thing, a rant really. Amphibious ships would be a big mistake for Canada to get involved with. I understand the mind-set that moves the Navy into constant capability expansion but it has to stop. The Absalon support ship is a master-of-none ship and we have to be careful not to let our navy become so with “capability creep”. The same creep killed the JSS since they had so many expectations for it the costs increased to the point where it was cancelled.
We have a great lift capability with our new C-177s and C-130s. They can fly back and forth across the ocean(s) brining many more troops and equipment in the same time an Amphibious landing ship could make the trip once. And what are the odds their destination is a coastal one? Landing sites everywhere in the world. Again, it is important to avoid duplicating roles as the US Armed Forces do. We don’t have the budget for it. We have transportation capability via the air force.
The US would not likely sell us Virginia class SSNs and the Seawolf class is no longer in production. The best we could hope for are used some LA class and that would be a monumental mistake as it is an aging hull needing refuelling and we just got taught a lesson in used subs.
The Barracuda class is the best of the at-market subs because they are more affordable without sacrificing Canadian capabilities (vls as pointed out below) and they have a crew of only 60. A tea kettle nuclear battery would be even quieter (and slower) but the Barracuda is ready to go.
We could always duel crew them too like the US does with its SSBNs if we had to. The Canadian version could be built with larger access hatches like the US SSBNs so components requiring maintenance could be swapped out in port instead of being tied up in port for routine maintenance.
A few PV 85s could be assigned to pirate patrol and to keep a surface presence. They would be every bit as effective as the several billion dollar frigates and destroyers most navies are sending. A Berlin Class tender could be procured for foreign PV85 deployment.
I have been looking into this for some time and believe that the CCG is and should be headed towards a more constabulary role. We should cancel the slush breaking APS and build 3 heavy ice breakers armed with a 57mm cannon for legitimacy.
Instead of building a mini us navy and entertaining the notion that we can properly patrol our coasts and power project we should focus on doing one thing very well – defend North America, and that has the flexibility of being used internationally. Build 12 Barracuda class SSNs or something of similar size with a tea kettle nuclear battery would be perfect. All the modern naval battles teach us SSNs rule the seas and with our Northern issues, only a SSN fleet will buy us any credibility. Remember, a nation that relies on others for protection is, by definition, a protectorate.
Strengthen our coast guard by changing their mandate and giving them 17-20 STX 85s (to replace the aging ccg patrol ships and 12 Kingston class) with a bigger gun (40-57mm) and like Canadianfisher said, capabilities for sonar and missile add-ons. They would be tasked with boarding and other constabulary roles inside our EEC zone as well as S&R and their other current roles
I’d also give the CCG 8-12 more Hero class vessels to give the Great Lakes, our seaway and coasts proper patrols.
A single naval platform is sure to reduce costs and the Barracuda or a tea kettle submarines would / could use civilian grade fuel reducing their maintenance costs. Using new drone technology with our SSN fleet, we could become experts at RSI and special forces ops. If a conventional war is on the horizon again submarines would be the major player. SSNs are the best platform to defend Canada and best best platform to strike back.
Beaumont-sur-mer brings up some interesting notions although he is promoting the CCG more than the Navy – I agree instead of one heavy icebreaker for the CCG there should be 2 or 3 for the Arctic patrol. To save money and time look into purchasing two or three Virginia class SSNs from the American or purchase the Seawolf class. Keep the VIctoria class subs on the West and East Coast as patrol vessels off the coast and training tools. Tomahawk missiles are not required have the torpedoes and harpoons which will give a lot of capability to these subs..
The Absalon class to me are good patrol vessels that are really not good at anything – yes you can have missiles, mission packs – but they are not designed for anything and are not big enough to be effective landing ships. So the Frigates are going to be around for 15 more years or more so you have the ASW capability covered, would this not be the best time to start the development of a new ship concept – and by the time the frigates are ready to be replaced the kinks are worked out. 4 AAW and control ships – this would be the development and hull type for an ASW variant and General Purpose ship. What about instead of that we develop a system where a change in a couple of components or modules modifies the ships role, similar to Stanflex – more options. Ability to change the missile systems, gun system, command and control system, removal or addition of the towed array, radar systems. This would allow a decreased number of ships that would be required so only 4 or 6 additional ships. Then 3 or 4 Wave Knight or similar AOR ships, these less expensive options would allow a greater number of patrol vessels. PV 85 or similar with a helicopter, gun and the option for a missile system or towed array, the CCG is receiving 9 Hero class patrol vessels – smaller for different missions. Leave the Arctic patrol to the experts in the CCG and the offshore patrol to the Navy.
2 or 3 Landing ships – I know the preference for many is the Mistral or similar – cost would be a prohibitive factor so a smaller, more purpose built something like a Bay class LPD @ 288 M a piece much more affordable and could fulfill many roles so 2 or 3 would be perfect.
Costs – $6B approx. as money is an issue.
You have the Arctic capability with the 3 Heavy Arctic Icebreakers and SSNs.
Landing ships and AORs give you a Task Group ability and the ability to support troops ashore with command ability, emergency and disaster relief.
The new ship program would allow Canada to meet our requirements in regards to NATO squadrons and in other parts of the world.
There would only be 7 hull types of ships in the Navy so costs in regards to parts and skill would be lessened and some money savings could be realized.
Submarines are all the CN needs to defend Canada and North America. 3-4 nukes – Baracudas from France are best as they are about 1 billion cheaper than US or Brit subs. Canadian subs don’t need to be able to fire all those vertical missiles, just patrol the Arctic and perform intel (RSI) during an international mission. They all can drop off commando units via mini-subs.
SSKs like the HDW 214 are better than 212 as they dive deeper and have longer range. The 216 may have massive battery banks and could possibly patrol the Arctic but is still only concept. Could use 6-8 for East and West coast.
The Absalon Support Frigate is the best surface ship for overseas duty, 6-8 would be useful.
Get 10-12 PV85s for patrol, arm them, and give them them to the CCG for East and West coast patrol.
The Absalons replace the need for JSS
Lose the foolish notion of an APS that can’t patrol the Arctic. Build 2 or 3 more polar class ships for CCG.
Sub power is sea power in 21st century. Surface ships project power in peace time but make for rather expensive targets in a war.
I think that the Royal Canadian Navy should evolve into a multi-dimensional force more relevant to existing domestic and global commitments. In that respect, it should project itself to its best ability in various levels. For instance patroling the sealanes as a multi-national force against piracy, as well as protecting our own coastlines and arctic from incursions by foreign powers, terrorism and criminal threats. The navy should also be provided with the right vessels to participate in any humanitarian emergencies that should occur. For much of these sorts of operations, you do not a fleet of large, expensive frigates designed and equiped to fight the cold war. My idea of an ideal navy built within the typical budget and manning constraints of the day, would be as follows.
6- Multi-purpose destroyers, or large frigates designed without compromise to fulfill our overseas roles and to protect other Canadian naval assests. These would be bases on ships of the Arleigh Burke class, or the Spanish type 105. These vessels could be built in Canadian yards using tried and proven designs.
2- Large amphibious landing vessels of the Mistral or San Antonio type. Both would have different advantages, but could basically do the same job.
3- Replentishment ships. More than likely of the Berlin class, or Wave Ruler type.
6- Submarines. 3- AIP equiped subs to be based on the west coast, where under the ice capability would not be as great a concern. Buy new! Either a Gotland or Type 212. Keep three of the Victoria’s only until new boats are built and commissioned.
3- Nuclear powered subs of either the Astute or Virginia class, to be based on the east coast, where access to arctic waters would be more direct. It might take a major sell job to convince the Canadian public that they would be necessary, but in reality, nuclear powered subs are really the only way to project a convincing deterrent in the arctic. The American’s might not be so receptive to selling their technology, but the Brits, I’m sure would be more than happy to supplement their struggling yards.
8- Guided missile corvettes. These vessels could embody state of the art design techniques and stealth capabilities not unlike the Visby or Hamina classes. What better to patrol our jagged and confined coastal waterways than with smaller, fast and highly potent ships. They would be far cheaper to operate and more flexible, as opposed to large frigate sized ships, expecially when patrolling the littoral waters along our coasts.
3- Arctic patrol ships. Build them large and with strengthened hulls allowing them to operate in all but the harshest ice conditions. Without trying to become a variant of the fabled JSS ships, they should have limited supply and replentishment capabilities, plus a large helicopter deck and hanger for patrol and humanitarian assistance.
Kristian like some of your ideas – just realize that the ships would have to be built in Canada which limits some of the designs as some companies are not affiliated with a Canadian shipyard.
I believe the 2.6 billion for the JSS is only a drop until they can get this figured out the cost of these two will eat up most of the money for very little gain. The JSS tankers are great but a more realistic approach is a design similar to the British MARS tankers – that would allow 3 ships and a smarter long term approach.
The STX Marine Canada designed arctic enhanced patrol vessels are likely with a total number of 6-8 being built cost approx. $80M apiece with limited warfare capability – so $640M with these giving us limited capability in the Arctic. 15 – surface vessels to replace the existing fleet – designed in and built in Canada means cost overruns and labour problems so if the cost is $500 M per ship I would add a 50% overrun and delay costs to that number. We will get 15 for roughly $12 or 13 B with 4 or 5 being a more capable version as a AAW and Command and Control system. The rest of the budget is going to be split with the Coast Guard so not much will be left for anything else ie. Amphibious warfare, Inshore patrol vessels, subs.
With the 35-36 billion for NSBP spilt into 4 grouping is what an under funded navy operating ship that are in some case are over 40 years old needs badly.
The JSS has 2.9 billion set a side a 35000 ton of the Berlin class AOR or Canadized MARS or even a Lewis and Clark would be fanasitic replacement of Protectuer class that are near 45 years in age. If 3 of these could be produced at 600 million it would leave 1.1 billion for a LPD or for cost over runs.
The Combat portion of the NSBP has 25 -26 billion to it.
The Valour MEKO modifed for work in the Arctic to be the Arctic Partrol Ship at 500 million a copy with 6 being built. With the Canadian version being equiped with a 57mm main gun, a Mark 48 VLS of 32 quad-pack ESSM harpoon and 2 twin torpedo launchers.
Thus leaving 22 billion for 15 ships of the surface combat ship or the heart of project.
Seeing the mistakes made by the type 45 with developing your own radar, missle and hull design are error that I hope don’t get made with this version of the project. With that said very thing I have seen the De Zeven Provincien even built in 2002 is still one of the best warships around on a dollar vs capablity basis. With the SEWACO combat system being a good match to the Mark 41 VLS and not having the weight or higher crew need for an AEGIS system
An updated ship with WR-25 Roll-Royce engines, 127/64 main gun, and 32 ESSM and 32 SM-2 and filling in the last of the 8 cells in 48 cell VLS for Tomhawk use, 2-Quad harpoon launchers, 1 CIWS ,1 Rolling frame missle launcher, and 4 torpedo launcher. With 10 of these ships at a 1 billion a copy it would make up the backbone of Navy taking 10 of the 22 billion. With 5 of a larger command version with 64 cell Mark 41 and with Anti-ballistic missle reach.
Hope me and my number in term of cost are not out of wack with what can be accompisled.
Please give me some feed back. If some one would like to talk about the F35 as well I would look forward to it.
16 Visby Corvettes for coastal patrols
20 Type 214 and or 216 submarines replacing Victoria class for coastal defence patrols
6 Virginia class SSN for Arctic patrol / long range operations
2 JSS (modified Berlin class replenishment ships) maybe some V-22s on board
4 Sachsen class frigates (2 Pacific, 2 Atlantic as command ships and escort for JSS
UAV recon for Pacific, Atlantic, and Arctic (will also replace CP-140 Aurora)
Halifax frigates can go – we don’t need to be that involved internationally. Our international involvement around the world in the last 10 years has done nothing to stop Russia from beginning to testing our defences cold war style again. Even the allies we are fighting alongside question the legitimacy of our northern boarder.
The transports are covered by the Sachsens plus SSN and SSK support for any international operations. Some Visbys could even join the task forces if need be.
This should be changed to include the new 30 year, 35 billion dollar ship building program.
I completely agree that the present size of the Navy would not be able to support an expanded fleet. That’s the rub: Canada needs a bigger Navy… and Army and Air Force. Needs, wants and gonna gets are at variance. One of the richest nations on earth with a growing population. Oh well. Dare to dream.
I am unsure the love affair with the Aircraft carrier as the size of the Canadian Navy puts the manning requirements as a huge problem. The government has some issues to sort out in regards to what they require of the Navy and the Arctic sovereignty they want to exercise. So on that note and maybe going somewhat over budget but not hugely and staying within manning levels that the Navy can meet.
Total:
12 CPF patrol frigates keep as the main backbone of the force, money already allocated for the upgrade and requirement of 225 sailors which could be reduced for patrol work around Canadian waters usually only 9 or 10 at full strength. Keep the 5 West Coast and 5 East Coast with a component of two available to the Arctic for open water patrol to augment the Arctic patrol vessels.
4 – Ivar Huitfeldt AAW – 165 sailors a manageable number for a capable ship and as one will always be working up.2 West and 2 East Coast – give us proper capability cost – ~$332M each – Total – $1.328B.
I know that this should be a spot for a small carrier but financially wise there is no way to do this without a lot more money. So lets move the next thing we need – so lets do the next important thing to replace the AOR.
4 – Wave Class Tankers – $172M so total – $688M if we can do it so we will go 2 – West Coast and 2 – East Coast. 100 crew ea
6 – Endurance LSTs – 3 – West Coast 3 – East Coast – $142M – Total: $852M for humanitarian aid, rescue missions and to move CBG if required. 65 crew
4 – Gotland – AIP submarines – $190M – total $760M – 4 for East Coast to patrol Arctic and patrol missions – each coast will have their own fleet with the 4 – Victoria class moving to the West Coast so 4 each coast for patrol and training. 24 crew
12 – Kingston Class vessels for mine hunting and patrol same disposition that are already in place. Reserve based not total fleet call.
6 – Knud Rassmussen class or similar – $50M so total: $300M with all 4 based on East Coast for Arctic patrol and 2 – West Coast for Arctic patrol as well. 43 for each ship.
So 52 ships – so if we go for an 90% in service full manned the total crew requirement would be around 3800 crew excluding reserve crews in the Kingston class. This gives us the opportunity to patrol in the Arctic with the Arctic patrol vessels and the AIP submarines as well during the summer months with a CPF or 2 for a stronger showing on both coasts.
Task Force to move a Battle Group on each coast with Command and Control with 2 or 3 LST to move the battle group with the AAW and two or three CPFs with a tanker and a submarine if required this would be a capable group. There are other possibilities with two AAW ships and more CPFs depending on the area that they are going into.
Total money $3.928B over by a Billion gives us a lot more capability and we can meet the Arctic patrol capabilities that we require. My thoughts.
Here is my updated hat in the ring as Canada strives to expand its economic potential, realize its place as an active participant in world affairs and the growing potential for future threat in non-traditional operational theatres:
1. 3 Fleet medium strategic projection ships (Juan Carlos – like) with:
a. 16 JSF;
b. 16 H-92 Cyclones (ASW, Utility/troop tpt);
c. 2 Chinooks;
d. 6 armed escort helos (Cobra-like);
e. 4 UAVs:
f. 2 X med landing craft;
g. Landing force of 6-800 tps with tanks, LAV III and wheeled utility vehs; and
h. self-defence capability
Note: One configured as a fleet medium strike aircraft carrier (24-32 ac), one configured as an amphibious landing support carrier & the third in reduced readiness to enable keeping two ships up at any given time and a suge capability.
2. 18 destroyers/frigates:
a. 6 optimized for AAW/command & control;
b. 12 General purpose (GP);
c. appropriate missile suites incl land attack;
d. 57mm guns with at least 4 of the GP ships with a 5 inch gun to support land operations;
e. ability to house/operate 2 x med helo (ASW/utility);
f. ability to house/launch a landing force of 40 tps (GP ships);and
g. UAV.
3. 6-8 corvette-type ships for coastal defence:
a. fast;
b. guns & torpedoes; and
c. able to land/launch med helo (hanger?).
4. 6-8 Mine warfare vessels.
5. 4-6 Arctic patrol ships.
6. 6 air-independant submarines.
7. 4 Fleet replishment-support ships.
8. 24 long range maritime patrol aircraft.
9. 50-70 medium helos (ASW, transport/utility.
10. The Chinooks and escort helos tasked from those aircraft in support of land force operations.
Imagine what we could do with the f35 costs.
With the 3 billion I would give everyone in parliament and DOD access to wikipedia.
15 type 45 destroyers $14.7Billion replaces 3 DDG280′s and 12 CPF’s(CPF’s in storage)
4 Juan Carlos $2 Billion 2 configured as aircraft carriers 60 f-35B’s (cost who knows Lockheed doesn’t )
2 San Antonio LHD $3.6 billion
24 Milgem corvettes $6.2 billion replaces Kinston class
8 Arctic Offshore Patrol Vessels $500 Million
8 Virginia ssn(block 4) $10.4 Billion Scrap all 4 Victorias
8 Type 214 ssk $4 billion
2 type 702 berlin AOR $809million
6 Pinto AOR $1.4 billion
2 Lewis and Clark T-AKE $1.1 Billion
total cost $44.8 Billiion total announced $35.0 Billion diffrence $9.8 Billion
Cost does not include facility upgrades and training.
San Antonio class ships and Virginia ssn’s should be available due to budget cutbacks in US defence spending. Especially given that the USN has committed to 2 SSn’s per year, Canada should be able to pickup some hulls to maintain jobs in us shipyards. The remainder Hulls can be built in Canada
The latest…. nuclear submarines!…. Interesting but realistic? We’d need 6. Anybody got some spares? More likely, if we decide to keep a sub-surface capability, use the Victoria subs for target practice & get some air-independant propulsion subs from the Germans. I still pine for those small carriers too.
Hello again all. As you may be aware, the Victoria Class subs we got from the Brits are still a pain! Another thing to be aware of is that there historicially exists a healthy and rabid insistence on designing and building our own ships at home. We’ve proven to be good at it but periodicially have to reinvent expertise due to the long time between builds. My opinion is that Canada will build its entire fleet itself less the outside chance we decide to get back in the carrier business or acquire quality submarines.
This is my Canadian Navy of the future.
5x Gotland SSK = 950,000,000
10 X F-22P Zulfiquar class frigate = 1,750,000,000
3 X Type 45 destroyer = 3,000,000,000
2 X Berlin class replenishment ship = 900,000,000
4 X HMNZS Canterbury multi role vessel = 500,000,000
4 X KNUD RASMUSSEN = 200,000,000
TOTAL = 7,300,000,000
I love this – great discussions:
So in keeping with this I will layout the fleet and reasons,
Submarines: 4 – Victoria – upgrade to include AIP
4 – Gotland – @$100M ea – $400M
Destroyers: 3 – Ivar Huitfeldt class AAW- not in your list $332M ea – $996M
Frigates: Halifax Class already outfitting them will keep them as a useable frigate and defence force. ASW and ASuW as the focal point with defensive AAW.
Offshore Patrol Vessels: 10 – Knud Rasmussen – $50M ea – $500M. Ice strengthened – mission bays to add more modules that are not included in the price – can use the 76mm guns from the Iroquois class etc. Can even add towed array as a module if that is a requirement in the North – with a flight deck.
MCDV: 12 – Kingston class – leave 4 on each coast for mine duties and the other 4 as patrol vessels in coastal waters.
Inshore patrol vessel: 8 – Orca Class vessels – cost $11.3M each already in service.
Replenishment Ships: 3 – Wave Knight fleet tankers -@$172m ea – $516M.
Amphibious Ships: 4 – Endurance Class LPD – @$142M ea – $568M – these ships are also capable of multiple mission including Arctic repair ship and helicopter carrier duties, humanitarian aid, command and control with the right modules. Very flexible to meet a number of needs that will be required of them. 350 troops per ship – 2 ships on each coast could move a Canadian Battle group with support. Although the hangar only has room for 2 helicopters the other ships in a Task group would also contribute.
Ok so I know some will not agree but here we go:
Canadian Task Force is usually composed of a Tanker, a Destroyer and two frigates with the addition of the LPDs we could see that grow. To a Tanker, Destroyer, 3 Frigates or 4 and 1or 2 LPDs depending on the mission. A sub if that was a requirement or a desire for more protection from submarines.
So your Blue Water forces would have a tanker on each coast, at least one DDG, four or more FFH, 1 or 2 LPDs. taking into account those going through refit, workups, alongside repair that are unavailable for operations, with this many there should be one ship of each class operating on each coast at all times.
Force distribution
East West Arctic* Great Lakes*
4 – Gotland 4 – Victoria
2 – DDG 1 – DDG
6 – FFH 4 – FFH 1 – FFH 1 – FFH
2 – OPV 2- OPV 4 – OPV
4 – MCDV(MH) 4 – MCDV(MH) 4 – MCDV(PV)
4 -IPV 4-ipv
2 – AO 1 – AO
2 – LPD 2 – LPD
Would like to see some more IPV added – arm them with something like M242 Bushmaster as a standard for the MCDV and IPV also on the AO’s and LPDs as secondary armament, already in use by the army.
The FFH for the Arctic and Great Lakes would be a duty of command and control to provide backup and assistance with helicopter and increased armament. Could also use the LPD with mission modules in that role also the OPVs have mission modules that could change from mission to mission.
If Canada is fortunate to invest more than the bare minimum, we might get a credible Navy that can fight & deter across the spectrum of conflict as we move forward over the next 20-30 years. Bring back the small carriers!! Of course we need to build up & expand our whole defence structure as our vast natural resources become more in demand in this increasingly unstable world. We want to share and benefit from our riches…. not have them taken from us by anybody!
Hello, there the Canada’s naval fleet only needs about fifty ships. 16 in the Pacific, 16 in the Atlantic, 5 for Arctic, and another 10 for international cooperation. They need light stuff and her is what I would suggest if I had the power to do so. First of all I would keep the City class frigates, and the Kingston Patrol Vessels that they have right at the moment and keep them in their assigned roles and what I suggest what they get is going to be on a strict budget of what they can rally up from the parliament for such a request. Fleet augmentation and what is needed most of these ships may have to be second hand ships that can be upgraded to serve another generation.
Aircraft carriers: 2 (I know this may sound stupid, but not what I am suggesting for the ship class. They need two modified Ocean class LPH, so they can use the F-35C Lightning II in a small matter and to as a command ship of the fleets in question. These ships would be used only with a dozen of the fighters, and the same amount of copters)
Cruisers: none [for one the navy in question is on a strict budget and cannot supply the ships effectively at that size.]
Destroyers: They have three aging and are going to decommission them with in a 2-year time span.
In this I would suggest 4 type 42′s (batch 3, since the UK is looking for buyers) or if you are going new build 4 Type 45′s and leave class at this.
Frigates: Like I have already stated I would keep the City class frigates as they are, and augment the fleet with 6 MEKO A-200 (Valour, South Africa) with replacing their SAM that is in there with either a Sea Sparrow or the Aster 30. This would give them 18 frigates total and at a good price.
Submarines: They have 4 Upholder class from the UK according to my sources and to be cheap about it. I would suggest 6 Type 212A submarines and with this the fleet would be sufficient to augment their international obligations.
Patrol class: Augment this force with some missile carrying OPV’s suggestion get 6 Fearless class (Singapore) and arm them with Aster 15 SAM or the Mark 13 Harpoon.
A new class of AOR is sorely needed, but there is not a one out there that can fit the Canadian’s needs at this time this should be a home brew from them.
In my ideal world, the Canadian Forces is actually an integrated and joint operable defence force, seamlessly able to blend capabilities to face threats. With utopian thoughts in mind, the Navy would have:
1. 2-3 Fleet medium strategic projection ships (Juan Carlos – like) with:
a. 12-16 JSF;
b. 8-12 H-92 Cyclones (ASW, Utility/troop tpt);
c. 2-4 Chinooks;
d. 6 armed escort helos;
e. 2-4 UAVs:
f. 2 X med landing craft;
g. Landing force of 6-800 tps; and
h. self-defence capability
2. 2-3 Expeditionary support ships:
a. 3-4 H-92 helos;
b. 2 X med landing craft;
c. 1 X hwy hovercraft;
d. Ro-ro capability for armour and sp vehs;
e. Landing force of 2-300 tps; and
f. self-defence capability
3. 18 destroyers/frigates:
a. 6 optimized for AAW/command & control;
b. 12 General purpose (GP);
c. appropriate missile suites;
d. 57mm guns with at least 4 of the GP ships with a 5 inch gun to support land operations;
e. ability to house/operate 2 x med helo (ASW/utility);
f. ability to house/launch a landing force of 40 tps (GP ships);and
g. UAV.
4. 6-10 corvette-type ships for coastal defence:
a. fast;
b. guns & torpedoes; and
c. able to land/launch med helo (hanger?).
5. 6-8 Mine warfare vessels.
6. 4-6 Arctic patrol ships.
7. 6 air-independant submarines.
8. 4 Fleet replishment-support ships.
9. 16-24 long range maritime patrol aircraft.
10. 12-16 medium range maritime patrol aircraft.
11. 50-70 medium helos (ASW, transport/utility.
12. The Chinooks and escort helos tasked from those aircraft in support of land force operations.
Well that would be a good reason. :)
Because the two Protector class ships were launched in 1968 and 1969? Isn’t that like 40+ years ago?
@ B.Smitty
If memory serves me correctly both Protecteur are beyond their life expectency.
Why would the Canadians want to buy a different AOR when they already have the two Protecteurs? And do they really need more than the two existing ships?
Jed,
Thanks for the info.
I’m not a professional in the field but a cursory glance around the net pointed in the direction you posted about. I was just hoping what I saw was being overly gloomy and not so accurate.
2x Wave Knight>/b> Fleet Tanker @ $172 million each
2x Bay class LSD @ $288 million each
2x Absalon command frigates @ $269 million each
2x Knud Rasmussen patrol ship @ $50 million each
4x Visby corvettes @ $184 million each
4x A26 submarine @ $190 million each
= $ 3.054 billion for 16 hulls
An important function of the Knud Rasmussen, according to its wiki is Ice Breaking. Kinda sorta need that somewhere in the Canadian Royal Navy …
You want to buy everything in multiples of at least 2 so you can patrol the pacific, arctic and atlantic coasts in rotations.
Mike said, “Smitty-C’mon, just for fun”
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy these little Build Your Own … threads. :)
Your plan essentially guts the Canadian Navy’s ASW capability. Those OPVs and tankers sure won’t be hunting many subs.
Joe – there is no “annual ship building budget” for the Canadian Navy. The current government waxes lyrical about the strategic shipbuilding plan (not finished / released yet) the billions of dollars to be spent (not actually allocated yet) on the following programs:
1. Armed Ice breakers for the Coast Guard (not designed yet)
2. Summer Ice capable patrol ships (not designed yet)
3. The upgrades to the Halifax class
4. The so called Joint Support Ship project to replace our aging tankers.
etc etc etc…..
Lots of political double speak, no money allocated, no ships designed, no ships will be built in the near future, and of course, the Canadian Navy does not have the crews to man them anyway…. :-(
Spend much time here and you can almost have dreams (nightmares) about the USN’s annual ship-building budget figure. Question – what is the Canadian Navy’s annual ship-building budget figure, irrespective of the $3B “FLEX” upgrade?
Mike Burleson said : “30 Gotlands @ $100 million each”
Your source for this $100 million figure for the Gotland is not exactly an accurate one.
My understanding is that the Swedish Navy wants the A26 submarine to cost no more than the current Gotland class and that they expect a pricetag of something like SEK 1.5 billion per unit, i.e. about $190 million per unit based on current exchange rates. Which means that the current Gotland class costs about $190 million per unit.
See for instance this article :
“Men den får inte bli dyrare än Gotland om den ska rymmas i den svenska försvarsbudgeten. Gotland kostar cirka 1,5 miljarder kronor. Konkurrerande u-båtar från andra tillverkare kostar i regel det dubbla.”
In English (translation is mine, so it may not be 100% accurate) :
“The A26 submarine should cost no more than the current Gotland-class to fit with the Swedish Defense budget. Each Gotland costs about SEK 1.5 billion. Competing submarine designs on the marketplace typically cost about twice as much.”
The $400 million benchmark for a 2,000-ton AIP submarine is not completely unreasonable (though I would make it $500+ million to reflect the most recent deals).
Mike Burleson said : “Prices would vary, and naturally you would want balance, instead of all Berlin class or Absalons (sorry Scott!).”
I’m not competent enough with Canadian specific to play the game, but now that we have the new parameters for the US Navy, how about another round of “Build Your Own Navy: US Edition” in the near future ?
And then you’ll find out how many Absalons I envision in my ~350-ship fleet !!! ;-))
How about the Spanish “BAM?” Seems like a good buy at 85M euros, about $110M.
There is a good discussion comparing it, the Holland OPV, and the French Foreal here:
http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/4980/t/FOUR-PATROL-VESSELS-FOR-ROYAL-NETHERLANDS-NAVY.html?page=1
Smitty-C’mon, just for fun! And you could even do a high tech expeditionary fleet such as 3xDewitt LPD’s, 5xAbsalon frigates, 5xGotlands, for $2.955 billion USD. That is not a shabby capability though you are still weak in coastal defense.
The point being to give the politicos no more excuses, whose job is to give us hulls in the water.
Concerning the Knud Rasmussen, I am a recent fan of this, and I imagine ScottB could tell us how the Danes get it done.
The Danes don’t have to scatter their entire manufacturing chain over various US states to keep Congress happy.
The Knud Rasmussen patrol ship is another star from the Danes, an ancient seafaring people who don’t seem to have lost their touch for creating great naval designs over the centuries. If Academy awards were given for ships, the K.R. would win the “Knud” award for sure. It can clearly step up from mere patrol duties to having near-frigate capabilities in a fight.
$50 mil per copy for a patrol vessel sounds reasonable, but $50mil for a ship this well specified does seem low. I’m in no position to challenge that figure; if it is Danish MoD numbers, so be it.
So, how do they do it? To say that, “steel is cheap and air is free,” applies to any nation. Is it those Viking genes that lead to so many right decisions and ability to control costs? Maybe Congress should do the Navy and all of us a favor by inviting Danish naval and industrial representatives to appear before Congress to testify.
Considering Canada needs a Pacific and Atlantic navy, and especially an Arctic patrol capability, my Canadian fleet would comprise;
8 Gotland SSKs – $800 total – primarily Arctic and overseas patrol.
6 Knud Rasmussen PBs – $ 300 total – sovereign / Arctic patrol
- considering the vast Arctic coast and rough weather, the subs and Rasmussen are best for patrol in the north.
Expeditionary fleet;
2 Absalon class FF – $538 total – Flagship PACFLT/LANTFLT
6 Endurance class LSTs – $852 total – multirole support ships, including helo and (fast) landing craft.
3 Wave class tankers – $516 total – support and aux flag.
Two expeditionary sqns comprising an Absalon, a Gotland sub, 2-3 Endurance class and a Wave class tanker, on each on each coast.
With a decent helicopter and landing craft (CB-90 and large LCUs) embarked the 2-3 Endurances could carry a battalion task force if necessary.
Weaknesses – TBMD and air defense in general (Absalon ESSM only).
So you essentially want to turn the Canadian Navy into a coast guard (with a couple subs)?