Build Your Own Navy:Canada Edition
HMCS Toronto (FFH 333)
Here is a little game that was originally conceived by David Axe at War is Boring, and which New Wars has put its own spin upon. For this particular post we will play around with some funds for the Canadian navy. Of late, budget difficulties and barely averted ship cuts has some questioning just what type of fleet does the world’s largest country needs.
For the next few years the Canadian Government has allocated about $3 billion USD for the modernization of its 12 Halifax class frigates, plus an unknown amount for its Victoria class submarines. So lets say you had $3 billion USD to spend. Instead of modernizing older vessels which may or may not be right for modern and future problems of seapower, you could rebuild the fleet. Here are some choices of what you could buy with those same funds:
Submarines:
- 30 Gotlands @ $100 million each
- 8 Type 214s @ $350 million each
Frigate types
- 11 Absalon command frigates @ $269 million each
- 17 Holland class patrol vessels @ $169 million
Corvette types
- 21 Baynunah corvettes @ $137 million each
- 16 Visby corvettes @ $184 million each
- 60 Knud Rasmussen patrol ships @ $50 million each
- 15 Sea Fighter fast sea frames @ $200 million each
Patrol Ships
- 63 Clyde patrol vessels @ $47 million each
- 63 Sentinel cutters @ $47 million each
- 47 Protector (Otago) Multi-Role Vessels @ $62.6 million
Fast Attack Craft
- 22 Skjold patrol boats @ $133.5 million each
- 500 Stiletto prototype littoral ships @ $6 million each
Amphibious Warships
- 10 Bay class LSDs @ $288 million
- 8 Johan De Witt LPDs @ $370 million
- 5 Mistral assault ships @ $529.8 million each
- 21 Endurance LSTs @ $142 million
Support Ships (Motherships)
- 6 Berlin replenishment ships @ $445 million each
- 18 Joint High Speed Vessels @ $160 million each
- 17 Wave Knight fleet tankers @ $172 million each
Of course, these examples were given just to reveal what could be purchased on a limited budget. Prices would vary, and naturally you would want balance, instead of all Berlin class or Absalons (sorry Scott!). With this in mind, toward a balanced and strengthened Canadian Navy, ready for the present and future, here is my fleet, built with $3 billion:
- 4 Gotland submarines total-$400 million
- 12 Knud Rasmussen patrol ships total-$600 million
- 20 Clyde patrol vessels total-$940 million
- 6 Wave Knight fleet tankers total-$1032
Total-$2.972 billion with 42 new warships added to the fleet. Now its your turn in the comments. Enjoy!
*****
I completely agree that the present size of the Navy would not be able to support an expanded fleet. That’s the rub: Canada needs a bigger Navy… and Army and Air Force. Needs, wants and gonna gets are at variance. One of the richest nations on earth with a growing population. Oh well. Dare to dream.
I am unsure the love affair with the Aircraft carrier as the size of the Canadian Navy puts the manning requirements as a huge problem. The government has some issues to sort out in regards to what they require of the Navy and the Arctic sovereignty they want to exercise. So on that note and maybe going somewhat over budget but not hugely and staying within manning levels that the Navy can meet.
Total:
12 CPF patrol frigates keep as the main backbone of the force, money already allocated for the upgrade and requirement of 225 sailors which could be reduced for patrol work around Canadian waters usually only 9 or 10 at full strength. Keep the 5 West Coast and 5 East Coast with a component of two available to the Arctic for open water patrol to augment the Arctic patrol vessels.
4 – Ivar Huitfeldt AAW – 165 sailors a manageable number for a capable ship and as one will always be working up.2 West and 2 East Coast – give us proper capability cost – ~$332M each – Total – $1.328B.
I know that this should be a spot for a small carrier but financially wise there is no way to do this without a lot more money. So lets move the next thing we need – so lets do the next important thing to replace the AOR.
4 – Wave Class Tankers – $172M so total – $688M if we can do it so we will go 2 – West Coast and 2 – East Coast. 100 crew ea
6 – Endurance LSTs – 3 – West Coast 3 – East Coast – $142M – Total: $852M for humanitarian aid, rescue missions and to move CBG if required. 65 crew
4 – Gotland – AIP submarines – $190M – total $760M – 4 for East Coast to patrol Arctic and patrol missions – each coast will have their own fleet with the 4 – Victoria class moving to the West Coast so 4 each coast for patrol and training. 24 crew
12 – Kingston Class vessels for mine hunting and patrol same disposition that are already in place. Reserve based not total fleet call.
6 – Knud Rassmussen class or similar – $50M so total: $300M with all 4 based on East Coast for Arctic patrol and 2 – West Coast for Arctic patrol as well. 43 for each ship.
So 52 ships – so if we go for an 90% in service full manned the total crew requirement would be around 3800 crew excluding reserve crews in the Kingston class. This gives us the opportunity to patrol in the Arctic with the Arctic patrol vessels and the AIP submarines as well during the summer months with a CPF or 2 for a stronger showing on both coasts.
Task Force to move a Battle Group on each coast with Command and Control with 2 or 3 LST to move the battle group with the AAW and two or three CPFs with a tanker and a submarine if required this would be a capable group. There are other possibilities with two AAW ships and more CPFs depending on the area that they are going into.
Total money $3.928B over by a Billion gives us a lot more capability and we can meet the Arctic patrol capabilities that we require. My thoughts.
Here is my updated hat in the ring as Canada strives to expand its economic potential, realize its place as an active participant in world affairs and the growing potential for future threat in non-traditional operational theatres:
1. 3 Fleet medium strategic projection ships (Juan Carlos – like) with:
a. 16 JSF;
b. 16 H-92 Cyclones (ASW, Utility/troop tpt);
c. 2 Chinooks;
d. 6 armed escort helos (Cobra-like);
e. 4 UAVs:
f. 2 X med landing craft;
g. Landing force of 6-800 tps with tanks, LAV III and wheeled utility vehs; and
h. self-defence capability
Note: One configured as a fleet medium strike aircraft carrier (24-32 ac), one configured as an amphibious landing support carrier & the third in reduced readiness to enable keeping two ships up at any given time and a suge capability.
2. 18 destroyers/frigates:
a. 6 optimized for AAW/command & control;
b. 12 General purpose (GP);
c. appropriate missile suites incl land attack;
d. 57mm guns with at least 4 of the GP ships with a 5 inch gun to support land operations;
e. ability to house/operate 2 x med helo (ASW/utility);
f. ability to house/launch a landing force of 40 tps (GP ships);and
g. UAV.
3. 6-8 corvette-type ships for coastal defence:
a. fast;
b. guns & torpedoes; and
c. able to land/launch med helo (hanger?).
4. 6-8 Mine warfare vessels.
5. 4-6 Arctic patrol ships.
6. 6 air-independant submarines.
7. 4 Fleet replishment-support ships.
8. 24 long range maritime patrol aircraft.
9. 50-70 medium helos (ASW, transport/utility.
10. The Chinooks and escort helos tasked from those aircraft in support of land force operations.
Imagine what we could do with the f35 costs.
With the 3 billion I would give everyone in parliament and DOD access to wikipedia.
15 type 45 destroyers $14.7Billion replaces 3 DDG280′s and 12 CPF’s(CPF’s in storage)
4 Juan Carlos $2 Billion 2 configured as aircraft carriers 60 f-35B’s (cost who knows Lockheed doesn’t )
2 San Antonio LHD $3.6 billion
24 Milgem corvettes $6.2 billion replaces Kinston class
8 Arctic Offshore Patrol Vessels $500 Million
8 Virginia ssn(block 4) $10.4 Billion Scrap all 4 Victorias
8 Type 214 ssk $4 billion
2 type 702 berlin AOR $809million
6 Pinto AOR $1.4 billion
2 Lewis and Clark T-AKE $1.1 Billion
total cost $44.8 Billiion total announced $35.0 Billion diffrence $9.8 Billion
Cost does not include facility upgrades and training.
San Antonio class ships and Virginia ssn’s should be available due to budget cutbacks in US defence spending. Especially given that the USN has committed to 2 SSn’s per year, Canada should be able to pickup some hulls to maintain jobs in us shipyards. The remainder Hulls can be built in Canada
The latest…. nuclear submarines!…. Interesting but realistic? We’d need 6. Anybody got some spares? More likely, if we decide to keep a sub-surface capability, use the Victoria subs for target practice & get some air-independant propulsion subs from the Germans. I still pine for those small carriers too.
Hello again all. As you may be aware, the Victoria Class subs we got from the Brits are still a pain! Another thing to be aware of is that there historicially exists a healthy and rabid insistence on designing and building our own ships at home. We’ve proven to be good at it but periodicially have to reinvent expertise due to the long time between builds. My opinion is that Canada will build its entire fleet itself less the outside chance we decide to get back in the carrier business or acquire quality submarines.
This is my Canadian Navy of the future.
5x Gotland SSK = 950,000,000
10 X F-22P Zulfiquar class frigate = 1,750,000,000
3 X Type 45 destroyer = 3,000,000,000
2 X Berlin class replenishment ship = 900,000,000
4 X HMNZS Canterbury multi role vessel = 500,000,000
4 X KNUD RASMUSSEN = 200,000,000
TOTAL = 7,300,000,000
I love this – great discussions:
So in keeping with this I will layout the fleet and reasons,
Submarines: 4 – Victoria – upgrade to include AIP
4 – Gotland – @$100M ea – $400M
Destroyers: 3 – Ivar Huitfeldt class AAW- not in your list $332M ea – $996M
Frigates: Halifax Class already outfitting them will keep them as a useable frigate and defence force. ASW and ASuW as the focal point with defensive AAW.
Offshore Patrol Vessels: 10 – Knud Rasmussen – $50M ea – $500M. Ice strengthened – mission bays to add more modules that are not included in the price – can use the 76mm guns from the Iroquois class etc. Can even add towed array as a module if that is a requirement in the North – with a flight deck.
MCDV: 12 – Kingston class – leave 4 on each coast for mine duties and the other 4 as patrol vessels in coastal waters.
Inshore patrol vessel: 8 – Orca Class vessels – cost $11.3M each already in service.
Replenishment Ships: 3 – Wave Knight fleet tankers -@$172m ea – $516M.
Amphibious Ships: 4 – Endurance Class LPD – @$142M ea – $568M – these ships are also capable of multiple mission including Arctic repair ship and helicopter carrier duties, humanitarian aid, command and control with the right modules. Very flexible to meet a number of needs that will be required of them. 350 troops per ship – 2 ships on each coast could move a Canadian Battle group with support. Although the hangar only has room for 2 helicopters the other ships in a Task group would also contribute.
Ok so I know some will not agree but here we go:
Canadian Task Force is usually composed of a Tanker, a Destroyer and two frigates with the addition of the LPDs we could see that grow. To a Tanker, Destroyer, 3 Frigates or 4 and 1or 2 LPDs depending on the mission. A sub if that was a requirement or a desire for more protection from submarines.
So your Blue Water forces would have a tanker on each coast, at least one DDG, four or more FFH, 1 or 2 LPDs. taking into account those going through refit, workups, alongside repair that are unavailable for operations, with this many there should be one ship of each class operating on each coast at all times.
Force distribution
East West Arctic* Great Lakes*
4 – Gotland 4 – Victoria
2 – DDG 1 – DDG
6 – FFH 4 – FFH 1 – FFH 1 – FFH
2 – OPV 2- OPV 4 – OPV
4 – MCDV(MH) 4 – MCDV(MH) 4 – MCDV(PV)
4 -IPV 4-ipv
2 – AO 1 – AO
2 – LPD 2 – LPD
Would like to see some more IPV added – arm them with something like M242 Bushmaster as a standard for the MCDV and IPV also on the AO’s and LPDs as secondary armament, already in use by the army.
The FFH for the Arctic and Great Lakes would be a duty of command and control to provide backup and assistance with helicopter and increased armament. Could also use the LPD with mission modules in that role also the OPVs have mission modules that could change from mission to mission.
If Canada is fortunate to invest more than the bare minimum, we might get a credible Navy that can fight & deter across the spectrum of conflict as we move forward over the next 20-30 years. Bring back the small carriers!! Of course we need to build up & expand our whole defence structure as our vast natural resources become more in demand in this increasingly unstable world. We want to share and benefit from our riches…. not have them taken from us by anybody!
Hello, there the Canada’s naval fleet only needs about fifty ships. 16 in the Pacific, 16 in the Atlantic, 5 for Arctic, and another 10 for international cooperation. They need light stuff and her is what I would suggest if I had the power to do so. First of all I would keep the City class frigates, and the Kingston Patrol Vessels that they have right at the moment and keep them in their assigned roles and what I suggest what they get is going to be on a strict budget of what they can rally up from the parliament for such a request. Fleet augmentation and what is needed most of these ships may have to be second hand ships that can be upgraded to serve another generation.
Aircraft carriers: 2 (I know this may sound stupid, but not what I am suggesting for the ship class. They need two modified Ocean class LPH, so they can use the F-35C Lightning II in a small matter and to as a command ship of the fleets in question. These ships would be used only with a dozen of the fighters, and the same amount of copters)
Cruisers: none [for one the navy in question is on a strict budget and cannot supply the ships effectively at that size.]
Destroyers: They have three aging and are going to decommission them with in a 2-year time span.
In this I would suggest 4 type 42′s (batch 3, since the UK is looking for buyers) or if you are going new build 4 Type 45′s and leave class at this.
Frigates: Like I have already stated I would keep the City class frigates as they are, and augment the fleet with 6 MEKO A-200 (Valour, South Africa) with replacing their SAM that is in there with either a Sea Sparrow or the Aster 30. This would give them 18 frigates total and at a good price.
Submarines: They have 4 Upholder class from the UK according to my sources and to be cheap about it. I would suggest 6 Type 212A submarines and with this the fleet would be sufficient to augment their international obligations.
Patrol class: Augment this force with some missile carrying OPV’s suggestion get 6 Fearless class (Singapore) and arm them with Aster 15 SAM or the Mark 13 Harpoon.
A new class of AOR is sorely needed, but there is not a one out there that can fit the Canadian’s needs at this time this should be a home brew from them.
In my ideal world, the Canadian Forces is actually an integrated and joint operable defence force, seamlessly able to blend capabilities to face threats. With utopian thoughts in mind, the Navy would have:
1. 2-3 Fleet medium strategic projection ships (Juan Carlos – like) with:
a. 12-16 JSF;
b. 8-12 H-92 Cyclones (ASW, Utility/troop tpt);
c. 2-4 Chinooks;
d. 6 armed escort helos;
e. 2-4 UAVs:
f. 2 X med landing craft;
g. Landing force of 6-800 tps; and
h. self-defence capability
2. 2-3 Expeditionary support ships:
a. 3-4 H-92 helos;
b. 2 X med landing craft;
c. 1 X hwy hovercraft;
d. Ro-ro capability for armour and sp vehs;
e. Landing force of 2-300 tps; and
f. self-defence capability
3. 18 destroyers/frigates:
a. 6 optimized for AAW/command & control;
b. 12 General purpose (GP);
c. appropriate missile suites;
d. 57mm guns with at least 4 of the GP ships with a 5 inch gun to support land operations;
e. ability to house/operate 2 x med helo (ASW/utility);
f. ability to house/launch a landing force of 40 tps (GP ships);and
g. UAV.
4. 6-10 corvette-type ships for coastal defence:
a. fast;
b. guns & torpedoes; and
c. able to land/launch med helo (hanger?).
5. 6-8 Mine warfare vessels.
6. 4-6 Arctic patrol ships.
7. 6 air-independant submarines.
8. 4 Fleet replishment-support ships.
9. 16-24 long range maritime patrol aircraft.
10. 12-16 medium range maritime patrol aircraft.
11. 50-70 medium helos (ASW, transport/utility.
12. The Chinooks and escort helos tasked from those aircraft in support of land force operations.
Well that would be a good reason. :)
Because the two Protector class ships were launched in 1968 and 1969? Isn’t that like 40+ years ago?
@ B.Smitty
If memory serves me correctly both Protecteur are beyond their life expectency.
Why would the Canadians want to buy a different AOR when they already have the two Protecteurs? And do they really need more than the two existing ships?
Jed,
Thanks for the info.
I’m not a professional in the field but a cursory glance around the net pointed in the direction you posted about. I was just hoping what I saw was being overly gloomy and not so accurate.
2x Wave Knight>/b> Fleet Tanker @ $172 million each
2x Bay class LSD @ $288 million each
2x Absalon command frigates @ $269 million each
2x Knud Rasmussen patrol ship @ $50 million each
4x Visby corvettes @ $184 million each
4x A26 submarine @ $190 million each
= $ 3.054 billion for 16 hulls
An important function of the Knud Rasmussen, according to its wiki is Ice Breaking. Kinda sorta need that somewhere in the Canadian Royal Navy …
You want to buy everything in multiples of at least 2 so you can patrol the pacific, arctic and atlantic coasts in rotations.
Mike said, “Smitty-C’mon, just for fun”
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy these little Build Your Own … threads. :)
Your plan essentially guts the Canadian Navy’s ASW capability. Those OPVs and tankers sure won’t be hunting many subs.
Joe – there is no “annual ship building budget” for the Canadian Navy. The current government waxes lyrical about the strategic shipbuilding plan (not finished / released yet) the billions of dollars to be spent (not actually allocated yet) on the following programs:
1. Armed Ice breakers for the Coast Guard (not designed yet)
2. Summer Ice capable patrol ships (not designed yet)
3. The upgrades to the Halifax class
4. The so called Joint Support Ship project to replace our aging tankers.
etc etc etc…..
Lots of political double speak, no money allocated, no ships designed, no ships will be built in the near future, and of course, the Canadian Navy does not have the crews to man them anyway…. :-(
Spend much time here and you can almost have dreams (nightmares) about the USN’s annual ship-building budget figure. Question – what is the Canadian Navy’s annual ship-building budget figure, irrespective of the $3B “FLEX” upgrade?
Mike Burleson said : “30 Gotlands @ $100 million each”
Your source for this $100 million figure for the Gotland is not exactly an accurate one.
My understanding is that the Swedish Navy wants the A26 submarine to cost no more than the current Gotland class and that they expect a pricetag of something like SEK 1.5 billion per unit, i.e. about $190 million per unit based on current exchange rates. Which means that the current Gotland class costs about $190 million per unit.
See for instance this article :
“Men den får inte bli dyrare än Gotland om den ska rymmas i den svenska försvarsbudgeten. Gotland kostar cirka 1,5 miljarder kronor. Konkurrerande u-båtar från andra tillverkare kostar i regel det dubbla.”
In English (translation is mine, so it may not be 100% accurate) :
“The A26 submarine should cost no more than the current Gotland-class to fit with the Swedish Defense budget. Each Gotland costs about SEK 1.5 billion. Competing submarine designs on the marketplace typically cost about twice as much.”
The $400 million benchmark for a 2,000-ton AIP submarine is not completely unreasonable (though I would make it $500+ million to reflect the most recent deals).
Mike Burleson said : “Prices would vary, and naturally you would want balance, instead of all Berlin class or Absalons (sorry Scott!).”
I’m not competent enough with Canadian specific to play the game, but now that we have the new parameters for the US Navy, how about another round of “Build Your Own Navy: US Edition” in the near future ?
And then you’ll find out how many Absalons I envision in my ~350-ship fleet !!! ;-))
How about the Spanish “BAM?” Seems like a good buy at 85M euros, about $110M.
There is a good discussion comparing it, the Holland OPV, and the French Foreal here:
http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/4980/t/FOUR-PATROL-VESSELS-FOR-ROYAL-NETHERLANDS-NAVY.html?page=1
Smitty-C’mon, just for fun! And you could even do a high tech expeditionary fleet such as 3xDewitt LPD’s, 5xAbsalon frigates, 5xGotlands, for $2.955 billion USD. That is not a shabby capability though you are still weak in coastal defense.
The point being to give the politicos no more excuses, whose job is to give us hulls in the water.
Concerning the Knud Rasmussen, I am a recent fan of this, and I imagine ScottB could tell us how the Danes get it done.
The Danes don’t have to scatter their entire manufacturing chain over various US states to keep Congress happy.
The Knud Rasmussen patrol ship is another star from the Danes, an ancient seafaring people who don’t seem to have lost their touch for creating great naval designs over the centuries. If Academy awards were given for ships, the K.R. would win the “Knud” award for sure. It can clearly step up from mere patrol duties to having near-frigate capabilities in a fight.
$50 mil per copy for a patrol vessel sounds reasonable, but $50mil for a ship this well specified does seem low. I’m in no position to challenge that figure; if it is Danish MoD numbers, so be it.
So, how do they do it? To say that, “steel is cheap and air is free,” applies to any nation. Is it those Viking genes that lead to so many right decisions and ability to control costs? Maybe Congress should do the Navy and all of us a favor by inviting Danish naval and industrial representatives to appear before Congress to testify.
Considering Canada needs a Pacific and Atlantic navy, and especially an Arctic patrol capability, my Canadian fleet would comprise;
8 Gotland SSKs – $800 total – primarily Arctic and overseas patrol.
6 Knud Rasmussen PBs – $ 300 total – sovereign / Arctic patrol
- considering the vast Arctic coast and rough weather, the subs and Rasmussen are best for patrol in the north.
Expeditionary fleet;
2 Absalon class FF – $538 total – Flagship PACFLT/LANTFLT
6 Endurance class LSTs – $852 total – multirole support ships, including helo and (fast) landing craft.
3 Wave class tankers – $516 total – support and aux flag.
Two expeditionary sqns comprising an Absalon, a Gotland sub, 2-3 Endurance class and a Wave class tanker, on each on each coast.
With a decent helicopter and landing craft (CB-90 and large LCUs) embarked the 2-3 Endurances could carry a battalion task force if necessary.
Weaknesses – TBMD and air defense in general (Absalon ESSM only).
So you essentially want to turn the Canadian Navy into a coast guard (with a couple subs)?