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October 4, 2009

motivator05c10dc5415324a337941448beb31f715aa0fd40

This was a left-over poster from last week.

24 Comments leave one →
  1. Scott B. permalink
    October 7, 2009 4:48 pm

    B. Smitty said : “This doesn’t necessarily mean it can perform small boat ops at SS5 though, right?”

    That’s right.

    The Armidales are certainly better at small boat ops than the Skjolds as configured presently.

  2. B.Smitty permalink
    October 7, 2009 12:33 pm

    Scott B said, “The ability to remain within the limitations of the operational criteria defined in STANAG 4154 (roll, pitch, wetness, slams,…).

    This doesn’t necessarily mean it can perform small boat ops at SS5 though, right? Just that it falls within the STANAG requirements for seakeeping.

    I’m sure it’s a better ride at speed in higher sea states than an Armidale or Sentinel, but it’s also a LOT more expensive to buy and operate.

    So again, it comes back to requirements. I certainly would feel a lot more comfortable taking a Skjold near the Iranian coast during a crisis, but is this part of the reqs?

    Or do we just need hulls to hunt barely-armed pirates?

  3. Scott B. permalink
    October 7, 2009 11:07 am

    B. Smitty said : “I don’t recall how much the Skjolds were, but $75 million sticks in my head for some reason.”

    $125 million a copy, for a total of 6.

    See this thread.

  4. Scott B. permalink
    October 7, 2009 11:04 am

    B. Smitty said : “100% operability meaning what?”

    The ability to remain within the limitations of the operational criteria defined in STANAG 4154 (roll, pitch, wetness, slams,…).

  5. B.Smitty permalink
    October 7, 2009 9:57 am

    Scott B said: “3) During the OPEVAL conducted in 2000 and comprising 1,000 hours of operations in various sea states (1 to 6), the Skjold demonstrated that it retained 100% operability in SS4 and SS5, sustaining speeds in excess of 25 knots in SS5.

    100% operability meaning what? Can it perform boarding missions in SS5? Since Skjold isn’t meant as a general purpose patrol boat, it may actually be less capable (in its current configuration) in terms of boarding ops than Armidales.

    The Aussies bought their Armidales for around $25 million USD each. Sentinels will cost around $44 million USD. Both should have significantly lower operational costs than Skjold (no lift fan or skirt maintenance). I don’t recall how much the Skjolds were, but $75 million sticks in my head for some reason.

    But it all goes back to requirements. Do we just want a simple PC/PG to operate in low-to-moderate threat situations? Or do we want something with more high-threat capability? Is endurance and price more important than speed and low signature? Or vice versa?

  6. Scott B. permalink
    October 7, 2009 12:33 am

    leesea said : “M80 Stilletto is a plastic POS!”

    Well said, Sir !!!

  7. Scott B. permalink
    October 7, 2009 12:32 am

    B. Smitty said : “Sure they aren’t a fast as a Skjold, but I imagine they have a fraction of the total life-cycle cost.”

    They don’t have the same seakeeping capabilities as a Skjold either. For instance :

    1) The Sentinel-class FRC can conduct all missions through Sea State 4 at speeds up to transit speed for 8 hours on all headings and survive through Sea State 6 at speeds up to loiter speed for 8 hours on all headings.

    2) The requirement specification for the Armidale-class PB included the ability to carry out surveillance and boarding missions in conditions up to sea state 4 with 2.5m wave height and surveillance missions in conditions up to sea state 5 with 4m wave height.

    3) During the OPEVAL conducted in 2000 and comprising 1,000 hours of operations in various sea states (1 to 6), the Skjold demonstrated that it retained 100% operability in SS4 and SS5, sustaining speeds in excess of 25 knots in SS5.

  8. B.Smitty permalink
    October 6, 2009 9:45 pm

    D.E. Reddick said : “I would like to think that a larger version of the Stiletto could be very useful (100, 200, or even 300 tons, anyone).”

    If you just want a ~300 tonne coastal patrol boat, just buy something like the Aussie Armidale or USCG Sentinel class. Sure they aren’t a fast as a Skjold, but I imagine they have a fraction of the total life-cycle cost.

  9. Mike Burleson permalink*
    October 6, 2009 11:58 am

    Lee, you know Stiletto wasn’t the only X-ship “exiled” to the Gulf. Remember the PHMs?

  10. leesea permalink
    October 6, 2009 10:26 am

    M80 Stilletto is a plastic POS! Orphaned but the regular Navy, rejected by the professional SWCCs. A toy boat in search of a mission.
    You want some real sea stories ask the USCG about their catamarans in the Caribbean?

    BTW most of the drug busts down that way are done by USCG LEDET working off mainly USN frigates, but there have been many notable all Coastie busts as well.

    Stilleto is NOT a patrol boat, it is NOT a cutter, it is NOT an attack boat. It is a steathy NSW transport period.

  11. October 6, 2009 12:30 am

    Chuck,

    Given that the propulsion plant contains:

    2 × Twin gas turbines → 12,170 kilowatts
    Twin diesel engines → 1,490 kilowatts

    Then I’ll guess that low speed cruising on the diesels is going to yield a whole lot more of a greater loitering time and range. Given the stealth characteristics of the class and running at low speed, then anyone getting RADAR returns from them is going to be seeing a nice, slow fishing boat. But, then – there’s that burst speed of 40 knots and those eight AShM missiles…

  12. Chuck Hill permalink
    October 5, 2009 9:57 pm

    D. E. Reddick posted, “Chuck,

    “Skjold can go 800 nautical miles at 40 knots.

    “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skjold_class_patrol_boat”

    That would take less than a day. Any info on time away from homeport, maximum cruise distance get any better at lower speed? Otherwise sort of a well armed low flying airplane.

  13. October 5, 2009 8:43 pm

    Chuck,

    Skjold can go 800 nautical miles at 40 knots.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skjold_class_patrol_boat

  14. Chuck Hill permalink
    October 5, 2009 8:29 pm

    I like Skjold. Do we know what the endurance is?

  15. Scott B. permalink
    October 5, 2009 7:13 pm

    D.E. Reddick said : “I would like to think that a larger version of the Stiletto could be very useful (100, 200, or even 300 tons, anyone).”

    I very much doubt that making the Stiletto Über Sea Sled will improve her poor seakeeping qualities : it’s merely going to turn it into an even more expensive useless toy…

    Want something that makes sense on a 300-ton displacement : SKJOLD !!!

  16. Scott B. permalink
    October 5, 2009 7:07 pm

    D.E. Reddick said : “I would like to think that a larger version of the Stiletto could be very useful (100, 200, or even 300 tons, anyone).”

    Stiletto was found to have poor seakeeping qualities during her OPEVAL. Below are some quotes from the OPEVAL report :

    ******************************************************************************

    * During the beginning of the deployment, the sea state was too rough for the quick transit that Stiletto had expected. Another person explained why the rough sea state impacted the crew: “in that environment [Stiletto] can’t go fast without wearing on combat effectiveness.”

    * Crew sustainability, due to the rough sea state, was limited. One person explained that, “when Stiletto is at high speed (40+ kts), it is not cutting through the water, it is hitting the water very hard. This is tough on the crew and fatigue was a real killer.” Another person explained the impact constant vibration had on the crew: “vibration and movement of the ship was very rough on the crew. After constant battery, the body gets tired. And once a person gets tired or exhausted, you begin to break into and cut down on endurance – and then it is a down-ward spiral.”

    * The crew had an “abnormally high rate” of sea sickness. While some sea sickness is to be expected, the crew members were all maritime veterans and most of them experienced sea sickness during this deployment. One person suggested that employing a simulated horizon device in the galleys may be effective at combating sea sickness in those passengers riding below the bridge.

    ******************************************************************************

  17. October 5, 2009 6:53 pm

    Scott B.

    Thanks for making that clear about the LRAD 500.

    I would like to think that a larger version of the Stiletto could be very useful (100, 200, or even 300 tons, anyone). Just adjust its characteristics with: enhanced range; longer endurance; reduced speed (only something like 35 to 45 knots, perhaps).

    Perhaps then it could support two RHIBs for SEALs and/or other board & search teams (off the coast of Somalia you might want both a SEAL element and a Coast Guard LE element for the differing situations likely to be encountered).

    And if properly enlarged this type could then perhaps support two UAVs. If two lightly armed UAVs (HELO-based) were embarked then the need for speed could be reduced while also extending the type’s over the horizon reach. Perhaps a HELO-based UAV carrying two Hellfire missiles along with a machine-gun would likely prove to be useful in places like Somalia.

    If the spaces aft were properly arranged then both RHIBs and UAVs could be stored in the same space below the flight deck (no above-deck hanger). Simply provide a lift for deploying the UAVs to the flight deck.

    Oh yeah, guns… Place a remotely controlled 25 or 30 mm chaingun forward for approach and pursuit purposes. Install two twin .50 caliber machine-gun mounts to either side of the bridge (perhaps collapsible, so that the stealthy and aerodynamic upper deck characteristics could be preserved). Immediately aft of the bridge add a 40 mm automatic grenade launcher.

    Think of this idea as a replacement for the Cyclone PC class.

  18. Scott B. permalink
    October 5, 2009 4:47 pm

    D.E. Reddick said : “Is that a remote-controlled gun mount port-side of Stiletto’s bridge in the image which Mike used to create that poster?”

    LRAD 500

  19. October 4, 2009 7:19 pm

    Stiletto did run down a drug-smuggling go-fast boat (running at 42 knots) through the Straights of Florida. Here’s the story from Wired’s Danger Room:

    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/09/stiletto-vs-dru/

    Is that a remote-controlled gun mount port-side of Stiletto’s bridge in the image which Mike used to create that poster?

    Here’s the entry for the M80 Stiletto at Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M80_Stiletto

  20. Tarl permalink
    October 4, 2009 5:32 pm

    Joe, if they look really cool, they are “innovative” regardless of whether or not they do anything different from what a non-cool-looking ship does.

  21. Joe K. permalink
    October 4, 2009 3:45 pm

    I’m sorry, but how do catamarans for the Navy = innovations again? I thought the only places they could operate are calm seas. Plus despite their speed they are not as maneuverable as other ships.

    And I see none of the roles planned out for the catamaran include strict combat scenarios. Sounds like a waste of money.

  22. Mike Burleson permalink*
    October 4, 2009 3:26 pm

    Byron thats correct, she’s been deployed from Mayport to the Carrib:

    http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=46008

  23. Byron permalink
    October 4, 2009 12:46 pm

    That’s not the Caribean…it’s Delta pier at Mayport NS. Since I’ve worked there for God knows how many years, I sort of recognize it. Picture taken about two years ago.

  24. Joe K. permalink
    October 4, 2009 9:18 am

    *sigh* I’m just not going to point it out.

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